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Post by slyn11 on Aug 16, 2012 12:45:00 GMT -5
I think about this a lot as a writer and a reader. I am very much a fan of gray and dark gray heroes...take Batman over Superman any day of the week.
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White Knight or Dark Knight? which do you prefer to read/write about?
Do you like your heroes morally upstanding, righteous and brave. True to his principles and his family?
Or
Do you like heroes that see the world in gray, are morally ambiguous, can go either way - right or wrong?
Or
Do you like them even darker - ruthless and calculating, willing to do anything to win at any cost? Maybe only the love of a good woman can tame their rogue behavior....
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Post by DancingDays on Aug 16, 2012 13:05:45 GMT -5
The way I see it, you can't have the white without the dark. All white heroes are boring. They have to have SOME moral ambiguity, or at least an error in judgement here and there. Or doing the wrong thing for the right reason.
Evil guys that are evil for no reason are boring too. No one cares if he's just an a-hole psychopath. He (or she, I guess) has to work from some deep seeded need for revenge (or something like that) in order for me to root for or against them.
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Post by jwsel on Aug 16, 2012 17:05:30 GMT -5
I think you need a mix of characters. But I think those categories are very limiting.
Take characters like Bo and Steve, for instance. In the 1980s, they were righteous and brave, and true to their principles and family. "Morally upstanding" depends on how you view things. Maybe they weren't, because Steve had his criminal past and Bo did some seriously questionable things like fight Jencon as the Riverfront Raider. But they had strong views about right and wrong and tried to act on the side of right. What made them interesting is that their hot heads got them in trouble and they sometimes made stupid decisions about how they pursued their goals. I don't think anyone would call them "grey" characters; they were good guys (well Steve was after 1986).
A character like Shane probably falls even more in the "white" category, except he wasn't written as a nice, boring guy (ala Rafe). Shane could be stubborn and arrogant and his attitude sometimes put him in conflict with others. He also sometimes placed family and friends in danger to achieve his goals, so even if the goals were "good," his means of achieving them could be questioned. Yet, at the same time, like the other "heroes" of the time, Shane was extremely loyal to his friends and family and would do whatever he could to protect them.
I find those characters far more interesting than today's characters. The show calls its characters "grey," imo, because it has failed to give the characters strong personalities that would dictate how they should behave in certain situations. Today's characters just seem to act in a vacuum and their actions turn on what the plot requires them to do. So one day EJ can trick Sami into believing her daughter is dead; the next day he can profess undying love for her. That doesn't come across as "grey"; that comes across as inconsistent and wishy-washy. If you gave me a hypothetical scenario, I could probably have an idea what Bo, Steve or Shane from the 80s would do when faced with it. Give me the same scenario with EJ, Rafe, or Daniel and I would probably have no clue what they would do.
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Post by slyn11 on Aug 16, 2012 18:56:06 GMT -5
Well obviously there are varying shades of grays to consider....just generalizing so people can find where they land on the issue.
I agree that Days doesn't write it's characters as completely as in the old times. (Writing a story about Chloe made me realize just how incomplete some of the characters on the show actually were. I filled in so many blanks for her, she's almost my original character at this point. Doing the same for Sonny as well.) However, I think I have enjoyed the characters from the late 90s to the present most of all.
I think the best written character in the past ten years might be Melanie...she has a complete life, she has a personality that is recognizable and distinctive and you can pretty well predict her actions by it. She has a full life with family, friends (and frenemies), work, and romance. She has a rich and complex history that can be used to create nuances in her character as well as create drama for her to go through for years to come. Her character was allowed to grow and change with her experiences and new connections, just like a real human being...imagine that! She is a good example of how a character should be written. Of course MarDar ignored all of this when they took over, but just in the few weeks Tomlin has been back, Melanie once again is back to her fleshed out self.
But since I asked about heroes...I will stop talking about Melanie.
I think Philip Kiriakis was another great character in recent years. Days actually allowed his trials to shape his character. He grew and changed from his experiences unlike most in the Days world in the past decade. His personality has been consistent since his teen years, just certain aspects of it changed or increased given his life's circumstances. I could write endless stories about Philip, he is a classic character, that was well fleshed out by the show. He has a great foundation to build on.
I could write Daniel easily. I understand him. His back story gives me quite a bit to draw from.
Rafe is pretty one note, but he is a textbook dudley...with some creativity he can be made whole.
EJ..is a mass of contradictions and complexities..such an interesting character filled with possibility. Morally he is one of the darkest on the show. Love and hate dance closely in his world, and it is all about passions and perceived loyalties. His feelings for Sami, I think they give him strength as well as make him weak. He battles them but at the same time he is drawn to her. So many layers to peel back with Sami and EJ, and their never ending cat and mouse game.
But really this thread was about all heroes not specifically Days ones. More about what types of men do people like to read and write about. But using Days as an example Shane doesn't work for me...but I could possibly write Bo....and definitely could write Philip or EJ.
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Post by DancingDays on Aug 16, 2012 19:20:03 GMT -5
Love and hate dance closely in his world, and it is all about passions and perceived loyalties. This is the most astonishingly succinct, and IMO accurate, description of EJ that I have ever seen. I'm blown away at how well this speaks to the heart of his character. That being said, I still think EJ is not written well as the writers can't figure out what to do with him. It's hard to have a hunk as a bad guy. But he's so delicious when he's bad. Gee. Even I can't decide what to do with him. Wellllll, actually I think I could figure something out.  |
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Post by Kpatch on Aug 16, 2012 21:39:12 GMT -5
I could write endless stories about Philip. Me too!  Here's my characterization of white, gray, and dark. Rafe - White Knight. Too bland and boring to care about. Philip - Gray Knight. Interesting and layered. My favorite. EJ - Dark Knight. Too evil to be redeemed no matter how hard the show tries. |
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Post by slyn11 on Aug 16, 2012 21:49:37 GMT -5
Love and hate dance closely in his world, and it is all about passions and perceived loyalties. This is the most astonishingly succinct, and IMO accurate, description of EJ that I have ever seen. I'm blown away at how well this speaks to the heart of his character. That being said, I still think EJ is not written well as the writers can't figure out what to do with him. It's hard to have a hunk as a bad guy. But he's so delicious when he's bad. Gee. Even I can't decide what to do with him. Wellllll, actually I think I could figure something out. Thank you! EJ is totally my type of character, it is so strange I am not a bigger fan. I think they are scared to go full throttle with EJ. You can't be halfway with a character like that. Another show - a darker show - could write him just fine. I don't see EJ as evil...or as a villain (has he even killed anyone?).....and maybe that is how I differ from other viewers, I don't know. I can think of many interesting stories for him. He speaks to me just as much as Philip does. |
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Post by blueyed358 on Aug 17, 2012 0:02:12 GMT -5
I prefer the grey knight....doing the right thing but maybe for the wrong reasons.. IMO Luke Spencer is a grey knight or at least he used to be. Always a bit shady, working outside the law, but still a good guy. The first real Anti-hero. I still love him..but I much prefer watching the old scenes with Luke and Laura. I know I am biased but..I think the old Jack Devraux of the late 80's and early 90's was a grey knight too. So complex and layered...when they recast him they turned him into a cookie cutter White knight, that's why I always pretend that never happened..they ruined the character (IMO) by not keeping him true to who he was
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Post by slyn11 on Aug 17, 2012 8:33:18 GMT -5
I prefer the grey knight....doing the right thing but maybe for the wrong reasons.. IMO Luke Spencer is a grey knight or at least he used to be. Always a bit shady, working outside the law, but still a good guy. The first real Anti-hero. I still love him..but I much prefer watching the old scenes with Luke and Laura. I know I am biased but..I think the old Jack Devraux of the late 80's and early 90's was a grey knight too. So complex and layered...when they recast him they turned him into a cookie cutter White knight, that's why I always pretend that never happened..they ruined the character (IMO) by not keeping him true to who he was I loved old Jack too! I never understood his comedic turn. And being the GH girl that I am...Luke and Laura are in some of my oldest TV memories... I liked Luke better later on though, after the divorce. It still makes me smile how his son became a cop and he is just so disgusted by that. Love it! |
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Post by DancingDays on Aug 17, 2012 10:28:57 GMT -5
Jack in the 80s/90s was my ideal man (granted, I was 13 at the time, but whatever). He was a bit bad, a bit damaged, but desperately needing someone to see through his gruff exterior, but then not believing her when she did.
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